Organization - Network and Firewall

[nanog1 at roadrunner.com (nanog1 at roadrunner.com)]

In your orgs (Enterprise, Service Provider, whatever), how are your Network and Firewall teams organized?

I'm a fan of having operational staff from both teams under the same leadership with an architectural presence from your security org directly involved enough to have influence.

What have you seen work most effectively?  Poorly?

Thanks!